What property tho? What is emerging? That isn’t saying anything

No you weren’t which was why I wanted you to use your words to say what you think it is. I wanted you to just say it so I don’t have to keep describing things only for you to say “thats not what I meant”

People say that, but then don’t catch when they are arguing for something not physicalist, which happens with use of the word “computation” to describe any physical process. People treat “change in state” as computation, when its really “us using a change in state as a proxy for math operations”

And the brain is made of cells. They don’t suddenly start doing something completely immaterial just because they clustered up into a brain. Action potentials aren’t signals or patterns that compute, they are the propagation of activity at speeds necessary to span the body that simple diffusion cant

I wanted to hear your words computation, then you said turing machine, so i wanted elaboration. I wanted to see your specific use of abstractions that leads to the category error. I know what a Turing Machine is, but there is an immaterial component to it, and ”computation,” that trips people up.

Where is the computation happening?

Sorry, its a turn of phrase, I don’t mean literal guy.

My guy i told you I wanted to hear YOUR WORDS. We may use the same definitions but we don’t have the exact same meanings for the words because we have had different experiences. You hear “cell” and think VERY different things from when I hear “cell”

I’m a big fan of the book “Transformer” which describes one model of how things started, its pretty good. Metabolism is the start, and doesn’t need life just the right environmental conditions to get the chemistries going.
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Nah, regular squid, but a giant axon from it 😜

Neuroscientist, Computer Scientist, Microbiologist. Becoming a teacher now tho, since this administration fucked academic research

Its really not. Is there something directing cell molecular activity from outside the cell that I’m unaware of?

Computers are not self-organized in any way shape or form. They have no agency, they don’t build themselves, they don’t do anything separable from us.

We build ourselves. A single cell built all of you, by building more of itself and other structures.

“In a self-organized way” We pump juice into them after building them to do so.

Nah thats good too. There are so many examples that should make this obvious to people but their identity is wrapped up in this shit so they refuse to see it, and just call these analogies strawmans

What are you talking about

Didn’t *only* say make

I didn’t say make I said acquire. But you could argue it makes it because it has to store it in various molecules as potential energy it unleashes to perform mechanical work when they bind macromolecules that do so.

Oh they for sure do, this has been a ridiculous goddamn conversation

“Transformative component” I try to be very specific about it being “transforming matter.” The computer isn’t building new structures out of old ones, assembling and disassembling molecules within itself or the environment. A requirement to perceive the world in a self organized way.

I know its not alive, but its the stuff of life. Its only in concert with the rest of the stuff of life that it can form into an organism that is intelligent, capable of the re-organization necessary to continue its existence in response to the environment. It cant acquire or make its own energy.

They really don’t. We made the computer that we use as a proxy to help us remember or perform mechanical operations we devised to represent a calculation. The computer does calculus the same way an abacus does; they don’t we use them to.

And besides that, its an organism level feature. YOU are intelligent, exhibited by your capacity to kick a ball AND do calculus in your head

What, you think doing a calculus problem doesn’t require the self-organization and re-organization of materials? You think neurons are inert? Or do you just believe in dualism so the physical things going on in there are independent of “thinking”

And its a component of life, when combined with the others into a organism has the re-organization capacity to continue its existence and dynamically respond to the world

The Predatory Ciliate (Lacrymaria Olor) | 2016 Nikon Small World YouTube video by Nikon Microscope Solutions

They have the basic components required, I would say they have a primitive form but are very limited compared to their eukaryotic cousins. When they form colonies they can achieve a lot more. But unicell organisms like ciliates are incredibly capable, way more than any robot we have ever made.

So per my definition, you have to be capable of moving and transforming a variety of matter in a variety of ways to experience the world and survive in it. Inert things are not dynamic enough. This is the relationship to bio, its the only physical system that can self-organize and re-organize.

Intelligence is a dynamic property enabled by an object or being capable of material self-organization in response to interactions with its environment and within itself. The scope of this property is exhibited by the variety and range of re-organizations that being can use to continue to exist.

Yes, stay free, its awful over here

No I don’t think its the same as life. Its a property that life exhibits. I ask the question cuz you say stuff like “a pool can express computation” but then can’t say what it is the pool is expressing more specifically. I think I know the mistake you are making but want to be sure.