What? I'm not being cynical or bad faith.
I am talking about the avarage joe as well. It's a failure to recognize material reality that leads them to fall for it.

The military has done way worse things than ICE. This has nothing to do with trump or voting for trump, there is a much bigger elephant in the room.
Trump did not invent imperialism

Screenshot X post from Greg Stoker: Greg Stoker @gregjstoker So begins the largest veteran and military family act of civil disobedience since the Iraq war began, occupying the Cannon building Rotunda - protesting yet another forever war with Iran which includes the genocide in Palestine, the ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon, and the potential ground operation in Cuba. Whatever violence we do overseas always comes back home and every war fought by this government is a war on the working class, which is you... we're here until arrest or speaker Mike Johnson come out to answer for the dead and meet our demands. If you're an active duty service member and do not wish to join the 5th US generation fighting in a senseless self-destructive war, immoral war for the rich, we will stand with you, there is a way out. Info below: You can file as a conscientious objector and keep your benefits based off time in service. Please call the G.l Rights Hotline (1-877-447-4487) and visit center on conscience on war The coalition includes members from: About Face, Veterans for Peace, Common defense, 5051 vets contingent, Military families speak out, and the Center on Conscience and War.

“If you're an active duty service member and do not wish to join the 5th US generation fighting in a senseless …war You can file as a conscientious objector and keep your benefits based off time in service. Please call the G.l Rights Hotline (1-877-447-4487) and visit center on conscience on war”

Well, the point the veterans of this protest are trying to make is quite the opposite. They don't want active members to repeat their mistake, they want them to get out.

They're not heroes for being veterans, they're heroes because they're now anti-war.

The oath might as well be marketing, because it does not reflect material reality and what a solidier's impact actually is.
I think it was perfectly predictable that this was going to continue being the case in wars like the current one. Hence why i believe signing up is wrong.

The history of american foreign policy is incoherent if viewed under the lens of "defending freedom". What the military is ACTUALLY used for is to profit the economic elite. This has long been the case.

Take lybia as an example, very similar operation under Obama.

He should have been given help if he was a threat to his family. Not because he deserves it (over others), but because his family doesn't.

Many people need help, not all of them are vets. Here are my general thoughts on vet benefits. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

It is good that those veterans are protesting. But they're quite late to the realization, they should not have signed up. Better late than never if there is a realization at all.
From what i hear, from many it's a strategical disagreement, not a moral one.

What? This man shot his entire family including 7 children. We failed the family, the guy's a dickhead. He probably shot even more innocent people in Iraq.

Very true. Mass death overseas to profit the epstein class. Say it loud and proud, nobody should join the US military.

It never meant anything. The epstein class thinks veterans are suckers, trump is the only one stupid enough to say it out loud the others pretend to worship vets.
And to be fair, they have a point, people sign up and risk their lives creating death overseas, so that the rich can make a profit.

I don't have a problem with veterans who are repentant and confemn the military.

I think we would agree that joining ICE is wrong, especially under Trump, because it is an organization that does awful things.
And i do condemn ICE officers, you probably do as well like most liberals, rightfully so.
I understand what you're saying, i don't understand the inconsistency.

Hopefuly i was able to explain my point of view.

Depends on the way the military is used, if it's a contingency for defense no... of course not.
If the military regularly is used as a way to enforce an imperialist system, then yeah. Either way solidiers have a duty to not engage in immoral wars and killings, even if it comes at personal cost.

Shifting the discussion into a hypothetical universe that has nothing to do with a single individual's choice on recruitment is pretty dishonest. I will reply, but i want you to actually engage with the subject at hand afterwards.

I did. I was replying in chronological order.

Yup... it's a very self centered way to view things. As if american solidiers are the only victims of war that matter.

The hardships that come from volounteering in a murderous organization (that of course, impacts the humanity of everyone involved) is another issue entirely.
I want solidiers to be viewed in a bad light, as to not encourage recruitment, i also want to avoid what your brother went through.

I would like to know what your brother actually did in the military.
And of course, i advocate for universal housing, healthcare and mental care, even for ex-solidiers.
But i do primarily care about the victims, and coddling solidier, biting my tongue, is antithetical to my commitment to them.

The left is materialist, we must understand the material world that lead to events, but because we do apply it as an analysis widely and not just as a justification when convenient, we know it's not a very good argument in defense of people on the wrong side of history.

6. I do understand it, and i agree it is very important to understand. It is baffling to me how you think this is new information I must've had this conversation 50 times. I just don't think that understanding how one can come to do evil often excuses it.

your arguments apply to them as well, and they have never massacred people in quite the same scale. (Though of course they should be condemned as well, consistency is what i'm seeking from you)

4. It is dehumanizing to the victims to give a pass to the people responsible based on "but they were ignorant" or "but they were trying to get something out of it"

5. Well, you clearly do. I don't think you'd make the same excuses for ICE officers...

3. I am saying that veterans are the oppressors, that's our disagreement. It's hard to argue when they're the ones shooting bullets (or logistically helping in that endeavor, if you want to be pedantic) at those who you seem to imply are the main victims.

1. The main function of the military IS war. There are various degrees of complicity, of course, some kill, some do logistics for murder. But joining a murderous organization inevitably makes one complicit.

2. Being stupid or obtuse is no excuse for complicity in such a bloodthirsty system.

The only thing standing between you and wide apologia of the perpetrators of the worst atrocities in history is american exceptionalism.

So, teenager in the loose sense, i'd call that an adult.
And... i hate to burst your bubble you'd struggle to find in history atrocities that aren't justified in the minds of the perpetrators and spread to propaganda.

Hitler's generals started going against him only when it was clear the third reich was going to collapse. America is nowhere near collapse at the moment.
Their actions are to be condemned, regardless of what they may or may not decide to do in the future. I really struggle to understand that point.

"Just following orders" has historically never been a good excuse. Moreover, when joining the US military, being sent to fight in immoral wars for profit is to be expected given just basic pattern recognition.