To be clear I have never made an argument against immigration as such, just against the dissolution of borders and structures of governance.

Trade tariffs apply, tax systems, public services. You are engaging in weaponised naievety

Through tax. So whom do I pay tax to?

OK but where would the companies they work for pay tax? Whom would they vote for?

But there are borders there. They have been the source of considerable worry, dispute and conflict, even in recent years. They have different tax systems and public services, different governments.

How would, say, public healthcare operate? How would it be funded?

You are stating a belief. How would a world without borders operate?

But that is a matter of degree, not absolutes

Yep. Hence my argument that it is a matter of degree. It's disingenuous to imply any form of means testing must punish the poor - it could simply exclude the very wealthy. I very much agree that I'd rather lose money supporting a few whom may not need it, than save money punishing the poor

Could you perhaps explain an alternativr to borders and how you envisage that working?

I see. Apologies I started this convo in the #ukpolitics thread

They need to be administered by someone, and bank transactions incur a cost.

That wealth gap in the US is much much higher and you don't have free healthcare or much of a social safety net. In our country those at or past retirement age are the Boomer generation, with many living off over generous pensions and living in expensive houses held on freehold.

That just creates unnecessary transactions that cost to administer. Taxing older people on income is tricky as it would need to be declared. Needs some thought but taxing wealth (largely in the form of housing) needs to be implemented somehow.

W00t

Like anything it's a matter of degree not one of forcing people to subscribe to extremes . Many older people are very wealthy and don't need the money. The same argument you make could be used to argue for a flat rate of tax, when we should be taxing the wealthy more aggressively

Done!

Again, assigning a motive to me that isn't there. I've met one of you before - taking g their shower argument out into the world and shrieking it at people, whilst making no difference whatsoever

It isn't the same as household debt, but national debt does have implications for currency value, economic stability and governmental spending power. There is a point to where printing money goes too far

Well, you've projected a motive upon me there. I know plenty of older people that do not need the income. The question should be - is the threshold too aggressive, and I'd say it probably is and should be more generous.

So the same arguments are being made, but to conclude the same underlying ideology we'd need a proper relative assessment of the country's finances

Not paying already wealthy people state money and targeting the poorest in pursuit of equity? That's right wing?

They aren't absolute terms, but relative ones.

I've done shits more left wing than most US 'Liberals'. They'd be on the right over here.

Means testing winter fuel allowance seems pretty left to me. Trans issues don't fall I to a conventional definition of left and right politics. Cutting services depends on the driver - ideological or financial.

Finally, something approaching policy to discuss. Immigration is economically sound in the long run as it boost growth and cultural exchange. How do we convince a wider electorate to support this, given we live in a democracy? Do we know the cost implications?

That's correct. Well concluded

A classic refrain 'Go back to Twitter!' I've never had a twitter account. I can read thousands of articles from both sides. Here I am waiting to be convinced and you aren't even trying.

So basically 'I know you are but what am I?' Nice one.

Demonstrates a distinct lack of understanding of how the existing system works and how changing one set of rules within an existing framework will cause chaos without a wider overhaul.

Keep fighting the good fight. Keep screeching into the void. You won't effect change like this and are, in fact, the worst enemy of your cause - shutting down discussion that could move views closer to your own with vitriol

How would the absence of borders work? The UK it would be easier, but what about mainland Europe? How do you decide whom has a vote in a space? Where they pay taxes? What services apply, where? I'm starting to think you are a right wing troll tbh